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Clucth Nightmare

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Clucth Nightmare

Post by BayouBill on Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:15 pm

So, I bought my MX from a classic car dealer out of town and drove it 11 hrs back home (no issues). Drove it around town for 2 weeks (no problem). 2 days before Thanksgiving I noticed the clutch wasn't fully engaging/dis-engaging so I tried to adjust the clutch but found the master and slave cylinders were leaking. I replaced both and tried to adjust again (new master cylinder leaking). I drove my car to a local transmission shop (double clutching to get it there) to have the professionals install another new master cylinder. After the install, on the second clutch pedal push, the new master cylinder started leaking  Shocked Had to have the car towed home. I analyzed the clutch mechanics and noticed the master cylinder wasn't lined up perfectly with the clutch pedal so I drilled new holes through the fire wall, mounted the master cylinder and now it's perfectly in line. Gave the clutch pedal a couple of pushes and I see fluid slowly dripping where the all leaked(near the circlip at the front of the cylinder). Evil or Very Mad
Oh, BTW when I was drilling the holes to remount to master cylinder I was on the engine side of the firewall reaming one of the holes when my drill started binding and a piece of wire flew by my face. I looked on the interior side of the fire wall and (Oh No! I drilled into the side of the Fuse Block Embarassed )

I've been working on this clutch issue for 3 weeks and I'm no where near driving again and now I have to repair my fuse block.

Any ideas what's going on?
I'm tired and frustrated.

Thinking about swapping hydraulic clutch for mechanical clutch actuation system.

Your thoughts ...

Thanks,
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by David V. on Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:57 pm

Hmm, that is strange indeed, and very frustrating to have something like this on a new project. No idea what the problem at the master cylinder end could be, but I know that on my car (which also has a small block chevy) the only way the clutch could be made to operate properly was by having the hydraulic slave cylinder push on the lever/fork of a mechanical clutch. All these years I've been considering switching to a thrust bearing (I think they're called?) but have never gotten around to it. Has held up just fine. Don't know if that's any help. If I think of anything I will post a.s.a.p.
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by BayouBill on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:04 am

Hi David,
Mine also has a slave cylinder with a rod pushing the fork. This problem started with not being able to adjust the rod properly. If I adjust so the clutch if fully engaged (shorten the rod), the clutch won't fully disengage. Adjust so it fully disengages, doesn't fully engage ...
Have you heard of folks having luck with the thrust bearing?
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by David V. on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:45 am

yes I think one person tried it, let me see if I can dig up his past messages. If I remember correctly, there was never one made for our gm trannys, so he had used something out of an other car. I'll look for it, no guarantee that I find it, was a long time ago on another site.

If it had not been working fine before, I would have guessed that you might have the wrong bell-housing, meaning your slave cylinder wouldn't bolt at the right distance from the fork? Does yours look somewhat like this (fancy polishing aside)?

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Maybe one of the other members would like to chime in. I am really no expert in the matter. Other than having pulled out and re-installed my drive-line seven times (and counting) I was not the one who designed my clutch assembly.
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by BayouBill on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:48 am

My bell housing does not have that protruding section.
My clutch slave mounts via a metal bracket that connects to the housing via the bottom 2 bell housing bolts.
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by David V. on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:49 am

Have not found the "throwout bearing?" post yet, but found this:

"This past Winter I replaced my Muncie 4-speed with a WC T5.  In addition the clutch master had failed.  The problem was that the original pedal had poor geometry.  The pushrod that extended threw the firewall originated pretty low below the pivot point and then angled downward into the master which was mounted at a downward angle in the engine compartment so as to clear the brake booster.  This resulted in a stiff clutch pedal.  Regardless I could not find any identifying markings on the master so had no idea how to replace it.

I found my solutions at Wilwood.  I picked up a Wilwood 340-13574 reverse mount single 6:1 ratio pedal assembly and attached their 260-3374 3/4" bore (they offer various bores to match the one of your slave)  master cylinder to it.   The 6:1 ratio provides a soft pedal and the master ends up on top of the pedal cluster out of the way.  It comes with a remote mount fluid reservoir which I mounted to the firewall in the engine compartment.

 Another bonus is that the pedal pad is adjustable and I was able to place it in such a way as to permit space for a dead pedal.

To install the pedal/master took a little fabrication work.  I removed the entire cluster bracket from the car which included the brake pedal.  This was (4) bolts, remove the brake pedal switch wiring, and out it comes.  I then mocked it up in the shop and fabricated the necessary mounting hard points from angle iron.  Welded it up and back in it went.  It was easier that it sounds, the Wilwood offers several installation points that you can use."
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by David V. on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:59 am

Found it! But it doesn't look like it worked in that case: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Also found this on the other site, hope it helps!:

"
Hey gang, I posted this on the new site but wanted to reach out here as well.  I am slowly grafting a WC T5 from a 91 Camaro to a 82 GMC truck 350.  During the adventure I determined that the scatter shield which  the original Muncie was attached to was out of spec by 044".  Picked up a new aluminum bellhousing (out by .04 so within the 0-.05" spec) from Classic Industries.  The issue with this is that no hard point exists on the BH to attach the clutch slave.  I considered fabricating one up but it would be difficult.  

I am considering using the heavy duty RAM hydraulic release bearing.  It would be a small investment but would eliminate the slave, clutch fork and pivot ball.  Has anyone had experience with these (RAM or otherwise) and formed an opinion? "

"I USED A BELL HOUSING FROM A 1/2 TON CHEVY PICK-UP, SLAVE CYLINDER BOLTS ON THE OUT SIDE"

"Thanks Warren, I picked up a Novak bracket that with some minor filing fit's my BH and will allow a hard point for the slave so that much is under control.  Now I need to shim out my release bearing so that I have a 1/8" air gap to the pressure plate fingers, create a new opening for the stick shift (several inches aft of where the Muncie was), make some kind of floor jack cradle to lift the T5 and I can try to worry the thing back in.

Question:  Has anyone attempted to install the Tranny with the BH attached to it.  I have to lower the jack on my motor, tilting it downward so that the BH can clear the firewall.  Do to this I am thinking my only option is to mount the BH to the motor and then to thread the input shaft of the tranny threw the release bearing/clutch disc/pilot bearing."

"Very reliable.  Link to the speedway page.  Follow instructions for spacing. How to Install a Hydraulic Throwout Bearing: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by BayouBill on Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:09 am

The "How to Install a Hydraulic Throwout Bearing: link is Great! Pictures are worth a thousand words. Now I'm leaning towards that solution.
Thanks David - You are an awesome resource
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by David V. on Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:18 am

You're welcome Bill! But in fact you should thank the community, they're the ones who post and make information available. I've just been around here for...4 years now?... and tend to remember what was previously discussed. Whatever solution you find please let us know! Don't give up, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I can't count the number of times I've wanted to throw the torque wrench at the car. When I finally drive it again though, it's all forgotten.

Tomorrow I finally get my engine back after the broken valve-spring incident, can't wait! Very Happy Then it'll be on to fitting the carbs at last!
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Clutch issues

Post by DrJ on Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:07 am

Hey guy's.

The posts that David brought up were mine, spent a lot of time on my clutch/WC T5 conversion and would like to talk about it. It's Friday morning and I have to get off to work (this working for a living thing sure gets in the way of my hobbies). I'll try to post tonight or if you want you can message me or e-mail me with your phone number and I'll call you.

Paul
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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by Hotrod on Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:10 am

My old trans was a Camaro T5. It had the slave cylinder mounted to a cast-in bracket on the bell housing. This was the factory 1980's Z28 Camaro setup. It used a regular throwout bearing. Mine had a 3/4" bore Wilwood master. It all seemed to work fine even though the slave had an ear broken off and the pedal assembly was a hacked together piece of junk.

I'm replacing it with a T56 6-speed and will be using a hydraulic throwout bearing. Hydraulic bearings are pretty common in OEM applications these days. They are self-adjusting for clutch wear kind of like disc brakes. The main downside is that the trans has to be pulled for any service.

Sounds like you may have air in the system. Since it was working fine before it started leaking, I would lean toward that direction. Clutches can be hard to bleed, since the lines are nearly vertical. You might try to find someone with a reverse bleeder setup. They push fluid up from the slave toward the master.

Also, a pressure bleeder may work. They can move a steady flow of fluid while bleeding and prevent the air bubbles from reversing in the line when you are pumping the pedal. The brakes on my 46 coupe is almost impossible to bleed without a pressure bleeder.
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Clutch

Post by DrJ on Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:43 pm

Bill and I have spoken about this, just wanted to post my two cents for what it's worth:
Mike already covered some of this.

What I learned during my own clutch/transmission swap was this. Starting with the clutch, confirm that the fork extends out from the housing at a 90 degree angle. If it is angled toward the front of the car a little that's fine. There is a way to adjust this if it is not. I called LUK who manufactured my 10.5" clutch and asked how much travel the release bearing required to release the clutch and it was 1/2" (may be different on different manufacturers so check). The typical GM clutch fork has a 2:1 ratio so 1/2" at the bearing is 1" at the slave so you want to confirm this. If you do not have that confirm that the bore of the master and the slave are the same as they normally have a 1:1 ratio. I have a 3/4" master and slave bore. If the bores are the same then one should think air in the system. I like many found it very hard to bleed the clutch. My only success was to buy a cheep hand crank fuel pump from Tower Hobbies online. Hobbyists use these to transfer glo fuel from the can to their model aircraft. It cost 20 bucks or so and it allowed me to pump fluid threw the slave bleeder up threw the master up into the reservoir. George Fay also reminded me that not all masters and slaves can tolerate DOT 5 fluid, a silicone based fluid that can eat up seals. I used only DOT 4.

I learned a lot about clutches and set up/trouble shooting from the site: Novak-adaptors.com. Under their tech section click on clutches, it's several pages but was helpful.

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Re: Clucth Nightmare

Post by BayouBill on Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:08 pm

Paul,
Thanks for the info.
In your post you mentioned 'George Fay'.
I used to work with a George Fay at Albemarle, then he moved out west. Is this the same George Fay?
Bill
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clutch

Post by DrJ on Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:12 am

Can not answer that Bill, George reached out to me probably thinking it was you. I just wanted to pass on his info.

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Re: Clucth Nightmare

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